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Saturday, September 5, 2009

Here's where I get called a racist




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[Read Second]

The thing is, I'm not angry or upset. I'm not feeling very self-righteous or indignant. I only feel in my soul a deep sense of sadness, that people can be so ignorant even as they say they want tolerance, even as they ask for understanding they give none back, and even as the commenters of that blog call me out for daring to question their opinions, my own opinions are dismissed. It is the classic hypocrite. It is the ironic intolerance. It is the shameful and depressing words of people who do not realize their own hate has poisoned their minds. I am disappointed in humanity.

I plan to do a video-blog series around these problems that I have encountered in discussing race with people.

31 footnotes:

FunkyStarkitty50 said...

I think that sometimes, people misunderstand the intentions of someone who is trying to understand their point of view. I, as a Black person, do not consider myself an authority on racism.Sure,I've experienced it in very obvious forms. But I will not assume that because of my experiences, I can fully "educate" a non-Black person about what racism is.I really believe that you mean well, and obviously are not a racist, but it's difficult to defend your point of view against people who look at racism through the view of their own painful experiences. It isn't about measuring whose pain is greater, but more about respecting and really listening to what the other person has to say. For example,you can't explain to me how it feels to be a Jew or feeling what it's like to see your synagogue vandalized with swastikas spray painted on it, but I'm willing to listen and try to understand. I can't expect for you to know what it feels like to be called a "nigger" by random White people in the street or to be followed around a store by a suspicious sales associate, but meanwhile, the two White girls on the other side of the store are stealing left and right. Maybe the last example is me being paranoid, but it has happened enough times for me to wonder whether or not it is a coincidence that these salespeople are ONLY following Black women in so many cases. But the point is, I'd only hope that you'd be willing to listen, not just agree with me, but to accept my reality as a Black woman as I would accept yours as a Jewish man.

Frizz said...

I don't think your opinions were dismissed. I think they questioned your opinions just as you asked them to question their opinions.

That's par for the course when engaging in a "race" argument.

Personally, I don't like engaging in these types of arguments because my views are parallel to yours, and when you express opinions the way WE do- people see it as us being sheltered, and not having experienced racism.

I have experienced racism, and it has made me angry but I don't let one person's prejudices (or racism) determine a whole race.

It's VERY clear you're not a racist, you seem like a person who gets along with EVERY race (not just black people) although when you express your opinions some may misunderstand or get offended and want to call you a racist, which is childish and a defense mechanism for someone who thinks their opinions are better than yours.

Sorry for rambling.

:)

Siditty said...
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Siditty said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Carmen Dixon Rosenzweig said...

"Linguistic privilege over who can use the N-word" Bwhahahahahahahaha.

*sigh* Seriously?

Zek J Evets said...

@funky: but see, my issue is disregarding that whole perception that one person can't understand our experiences as a "this person" or "that person". we're all people, and that transcends, in my opinion, everything.

i have listened to what people say, heard their anger, seen their pain, and compared it to the pain i've experienced being discriminated as a jew (among other things) and yet, while i see them (them being everyone) indulging in the same hate they were hurt with, i don't. why is that? i'm not special, and certainly not unique. martin luther king, and mahatma ghandi come to mind as prime examples of peaceful resistance, of change by actions instead of reinforcing the cycle of hatred.

but i thank you for at least seeing that i'm not out to offend anyone, because i'm not.

my goal is to understand.

@frizz: i'm not so sure... it wasn't just the spotlighting of my argument as a "typial white person" trying to talk about/understand race. it was a condescending logical fallacy, reduction to absurdity, focusing on things that have nothing to do with what i was saying (i.e. their own experiences, and my skin-color).

have to agree that maybe engaging in these types of arguments isn't as constructive as i thought. didn't realize how deeply entrenched the victim ideology is, how even questioning can be seen as attacking - which is why i plan to do that vlog series, to explore all of this that i've learned (and i've learned quite a bit outside of the blogosphere, because SF has it's own interesting take on race).

thanks for rambling =)

Zek J Evets said...

@siditty: first of all. i typed a very long response to your post. i sent it. and so far, you haven't deigned to accept it.

comment moderation is all well and good, but the fact that you've forced my reaction to silence, tells me a lot about how you really feel on this whole topic. actions speak louder than our words.

i question your COMPASSION AS A PERSON, not your intelligence. anyone can tell you're intelligent siditty. your literacy is proof enough of that. but being intelligent doesn't make you a good person.

and by admitting that you ARE a racist, i believe the conversation has broken down. i am glad you can admit to it. most people don't understand themselves well enough to see the bad inside them along with their good. but now what? are you going to work to overcome your racism? or let it stay?

i wanted to understand your position, and now i do. pointing out the contradictions and hypocrisies isn't going to be productive until you can overcome your own hate. YOU need to STOP hating based upon your own horrible experiences. not everyone is the same, and white people are as variable as any other racial/ethnic group.

until then though, i simply ask for a little intellectual hospitality, instead of all the hostility. you question my opinions and i'm fine with that, but when you straw-man me and dismiss me as your own personal caricature or stereotype, well, then you're as condescending and trivializing as you (and others on the blog) call me when i comment on the issues you all bring up.

which brings me to my next point. ya'll constantly commit the worst hypocrisies i've ever seen, and it is really... annoying. arguing for equality regardless of skin-color but then treating me differently for being a white person with "white privilege", telling me i can't understand what it's like to be you, but then acting you've got me all figured out, talking about how racism is still alive and well in america, but then dismissing me when i point out racism against whites, as if it doesn't exist (though it does). i could go on and on, but that would be a waste of time, because the hypocrisies you all engage in are not because you don't notice them, but because you want to win the argument. you want me to be wrong, and you to be right, and it just isn't about that.

i just want everyone to get the fuck along so we can all live together in peace.

so while you think i have this secret obsession to say "nigger" the reality is i don't give a damn about your race. something so insignificant as skin-color doesn't make a difference to me anymore than your hair-color or clothes. less even, because at least you can choose your clothes, which says more about you that way.

my goal will continue to be understanding PEOPLE. those questions i asked about "what is it to be racist?" were something from my goddamn anthropology textbooks! jomo kenyatta asked a variant of the same questions i posited to you in his work among the gikuyu (that time directed towards colonists). i wasn't saying racism is an opinion, but genuinely asking what constitutes racism when it's so subtle like we both agree it has become. who decides? and why? what distinguishes subtle racism from overtly racist acts that most people would say is racist? what does it mean to be racist in this highly globalized world? i asked very serious questions, many of which were reiterated in my response to your post that you decided to moderate - AKA not show it.

so, please siditty, don't come to my blog and accuse me of sentiments that obviously i don't possess. don't reinforce my own stereotypes of hypersensitive political correctness that assumes anyone who doesn't follow the groupthink of your blog is somehow dismissive and can't possibly understand.

in a word: don't be like the people you hate.

cheers

Siditty said...

Please do not use Ghandi as an example of peaceful protest. His protest was that indians were on par with whites and above "kaffirs" (aka black people) Ghandi didn't like black people either. His methods were to create a social hierarchy based upon race. But if you believe that social hierarchy exists, then all means, I guess use Ghandi as an example. Martin Luther King promoted peace and died in violence. Ironic isn't it?

it was a condescending logical fallacy, reduction to absurdity, focusing on things that have nothing to do with what i was saying

How exactly was it anymore condescending than saying that black people are blind to double standards and using the right to use the word "nigger" and affirmative action any less condescending and rude?

didn't realize how deeply entrenched the victim ideology is, how even questioning can be seen as attacking

I'm not a victim, I am just not willing to sit blindly like you and others in regards to the truth of this debate.

How did you determine anyone in that debate was a victim? Because we spoke the truth. Contrary to popular belief, even with racism, most of us blacks are able to function in society and not sit on our asses crying, but because we talk about the reality of race in America, as per usual it is dismissed by you as "whining" and "playing victim".


i typed a very long response to your post. i sent it. and so far, you haven't deigned to accept it.

Bullshit, never got it. No lie.


comment moderation is all well and good, but the fact that you've forced my reaction to silence, tells me a lot about how you really feel on this whole topic. actions speak louder than our words.


Bullshit, I never once got the comment, I haven't rejected a comment in AGES. Quit lying.

i question your COMPASSION AS A PERSON, not your intelligence. anyone can tell you're intelligent siditty. your literacy is proof enough of that. but being intelligent doesn't make you a good person.

You question my compassion? You can't even see my humanity, you just assume all the stereotypes are true. You dismiss racism is political correctness and opinion. Yet I have no compassion? I give as much compassion as I have received.

Yes I am a racist, like most people, but I analyze myself, question myself, and unlike you can admit to it. I guess you didn't read this post, and again it is typical for someone to say, you're racist, without once taking into consideration what is said. It fell on deaf ears, I know better now.

Just in case you missed this one: http://siditty.blogspot.com/2009/07/im-racist.html

Siditty said...

i wanted to understand your position, and now i do. pointing out the contradictions and hypocrisies isn't going to be productive until you can overcome your own hate.

I advise you to do the same. I don't really have time for hate. Because I question and show concerns for the easy dismissal of my experiences due to your denial of race relations in America, does not mean I hate.

YOU need to STOP hating based upon your own horrible experiences. not everyone is the same, and white people are as variable as any other racial/ethnic group.

Yes dismiss my experiences and let bygones be bygones, again a typical response to racism in America.

i simply ask for a little intellectual hospitality, instead of all the hostility

I wasn't hostile with you at all. I just didn't sugarcoat the truth, big difference.

You have in many of your comments on my blog, been nothing but condescending, but then recoil when the same hospitality you give has been returned? Why?

ya'll constantly commit the worst hypocrisies i've ever seen, and it is really... annoying. arguing for equality regardless of skin-color but then treating me differently for being a white person with "white privilege", telling me i can't understand what it's like to be you,

You think you can understand what it is like to be black,but in the same breathe wonder why you can't call black people "niggers"? Really? I can't understand what it is like for a white person in America, I can't understand what it is like to be a man in America, I can only truly understand what it is like to be me, a black woman raised in white neighborhoods, married to a white man, and carrying a biracial child. To think I know what it is like to be anything else is condescending. Can I get an idea? Yes.Can I empathize? Yes, but I can't fully understand. I can't understand what it is like to be a victim of rape, nor can I understand what it is to be someone of a different race. To do so it to dismiss their plight and struggle. Which is what you did.

n i point out racism against whites, as if it doesn't exist (though it does).

When you can prove to me racism affects whites on the same level it has blacks and when that racism against whites has been institutionally and fully embraced by mainstream society, please let me know. When you can live your whole entire life as a minority in a majority world, were you are told you are other and are inferior in every way imaginable, get back at me. You can't I know you can't because you blend into the majority. Getting a taste of racism, isn't the same as racism. Affirmative action isn't discrimination against whites, it is a fight to give minorities and women (yes including white women) some footing in a world that has overwhelmingly favored men who are white. If that is racism against whites, I guess your definition of racism is that whites should stay in power and everyone else should think it to be wonderful. I don't even know why I said all that, it fell on deaf ears.

There is no argument to win, racism exists, it has always exists and it continues to exist, why would you argue that?

so while you think i have this secret obsession to say "nigger" the reality is i don't give a damn about your race.

You brought up the linguistic right to say "nigger", not me. I wonder why you feel this is white racism, being denied the right to say a racial slur. It's a horrible word with an ugly past.

If you didn't care about my race, you wouldn't have said half of what you did about affirmative action, white racism, or the right to say "nigger".

Siditty said...

what does it mean to be racist in this highly globalized world?

It means money means more than race, but it doesn't mean racism goes away.

i asked very serious questions, many of which were reiterated in my response to your post that you decided to moderate - AKA not show it.

Again I call bullshit, I never got it. I will even look through my email notifications for it and post it happily and happily respond if I find. Just let me know what day you sent it.

Don't bullshit people saying I didn't post your stuff, I post way more than I should, and omit a lot, but mostly just the die, nigger die comments.

My blog doesn't contain groupthink, take that bullshit insult elsewhere please.

Siditty said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Zek J Evets said...

@siditty: i did send it, the day of your post. if it didn't go through, then i apologize for saying you moderated it. but at this point, it doesn't really matter. you are obviously upset, and that coupled with choosing to continue being racist (where as i am not), means this conversation isn't going to go anywhere except in circles.

and i also apologize for offending you, since i wanted to understand. i came to your blog to learn, and i have...

and what i've learned is that i cannot condone your willful decision to hate, to dismiss, assume that my questioning you is attacking you while attacking me is questioning me, to ascribe your perception of white people onto me, when not all white people are the same -- just like all black people are not the same -- and to assume i've never experienced what you've experienced, when i have many experiences that are eerily similar to racism (only in my case, anti-semitic) and TOLD YOU SO. i can't subscribe to your belief that we will never be able to understand one another.

so, even as i am sorry, i am even more sorry FOR you. i am sad that you cannot let go of your hate, and your anger, to see what i'm talking about.

thanks for taking the time to reply to all of my comments, and i wish you good luck with your baby.

Siditty said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
samselton said...

i dont think your racist zek :)
normally i would type some long, pacifistic, response
which i probably will later
but im not in the mood right now

Zek J Evets said...

@samselton: thanks =)

i'll keep an eye out for your "long, pacifistic response" hehe.

Siditty said...

Now that I know in your mind what you thought I my blog all along, I say with great pride, you are nothing but a shit starter incapable of rational thought. An internet troll doing an experiment trying to prove your superiority. Typical stereotype fulfilled congrats.

Zek J Evets said...

@siditty: speaking of internet trolling, can you stop trolling MY blog and starting shit? or do you plan to go through all of my posts feeling self-righteous, ad hominem ad absurdum.

i've already given you my appreciation regarding your time investment in trying to explain yourself to me and my well-wishes about your baby.

so... yeah. thanks.

Siditty said...

I am just giving you the same hospitality you gave me when you commented on my blog and then ran back here calling folks apeshit and trying to prove how race obsessed and racist black people are. It is really crazy I even defended you at one time. Don't worry this blog isn't of relevance anymore. Feel free to stalk my blog for more fodder, you are the troll, I don't go to others blogs for the soul purpose of trashing people. Thanks anyway though.

Just for you:

How to Suppress Discussions of Racism

Tired of discussions of racism in literature, television, and film? Worn out from the unexpected criticism of your leisure pursuits? Exhausted by the effort of having to respond to each new argument carefully and conscientiously?

We can help!

We'll teach you how to suppress discussion of racism in six easy steps. Soon suppressing dissent will be so easy you can do it in your sleep!

1. Control what your audience sees.

2. Attack the person, not the argument.
Personal attacks end the discussion before it even starts! If you can accuse your opponent of "paranoia," "white guilt," "internalized racism," "whining," "overreacting," "paternalism," "condescension," "being obsessed with race," "bitching about racism at the drop of a hat," or "taking things too personally," you don't need to bother addressing the content of their remarks. This will save you time and energy you can then devote to happier pursuits.

Siditty said...

3. Argue against straw men
A "straw man argument" occurs when you misrepresent your opponent's position so that it's easier to refute.

Here are some straw men you can use almost any time someone mentions race or criticizes racial representation in a book/film/TV show/comic book:


"Do you want to censor an artist's vision?"
"Please, like a movie/book/comic book is going to turn people racist or make white people want to enslave black people again?"
"According to you, the director/writer/artist sat down and decided to oppress people of color!"
"You want people to boycott art unless it's politically correct."
"You think people shouldn't enjoy art if it has racist elements."
"You think art isn't any good if it's racist."
"You think anyone who disagrees with you is a racist."


4. Deflect attention away from the specific criticism.
Remember, your goal is to avoid having to focus on what your opponent has actually said.

"Why are you complaining about racism instead of sexism/homophobia/ageism/classism/genocide/world hunger?"
"I'm [a member of an oppressed group] and I'm not offended."
"My friend is [a member of an oppressed group] and he/she is not offended."
"Why aren't you talking about the white people in the book/film/comic book/TV show?"
"It's just a book/film/comic book/TV show!"

Siditty said...

5. Racism, however ugly, is better than the alternative.

"Pointing out racism just makes it harder for us to achieve a colorblind society. You shouldn't judge people based on their race."
"Focusing so much on race just shows that you're racist yourself."
"Minorities can be racist too, you know!"
"Even if it's not the best representation of minority characters, it's better than having no minority characters at all, isn't it?"
"You'd rather have boringly flawless and politically correct minority characters?"
"Everyone knows it's bad to be racist now, so why make people feel defensive and ashamed by pointing incidents out?"
"Maybe it's racist, but what about reverse racism?"

6. Prove your opponent has mistaken some other quality for racism.

In the worst-case scenario, you may need to respond to specific points in your opponent's argument. In these cases, familiarity with the book/film/TV show/comic book in question will help you customize your response to best effect.

"Since everyone knows those are racist stereotypes, no one takes them seriously anymore and they can't do any harm. You're just missing the joke/clever subversion of the stereotype."

"It could be just a coincidence that this character fits an objectionable racial stereotype."

"It's not racist, it's just one character's point of view!"

If your opponent objects to this, see 3a. Any attempt to question why this character has been chosen or how the narrative is structured should be countered firmly with "Go write your own book/movie/comic book/TV show then!"

"It's not racist, interesting things only happen to white people!"

Because people of color have been oppressed, it's necessary to make protagonists powerful people, i.e. white. People of color have led lives too depressing, constricted, or painful to make for good fiction. Audiences come to art for escape, not to see the underdogs win or the powerless gain power or characters grow during the course of the film; and escape is, of course, incompatible with protagonists of color.

"It's not racist, it's historically accurate!"

You do not need to be familiar with the historical era in question. Your opponent probably doesn't know any more about the era than you do.

"It's not racist, it's a fantasy!"

Once a work of entertainment incorporates fantastical elements, it is no longer influenced by, reflective of, or capable of commenting on the real world.

"It's not racist, those people really are like that!"

If pressed, say that you've observed this behavior yourself. Your opponent can't prove you haven't.

"It's not racist, look how the white characters are treated!"

Review


Control what your audience sees.
Attack the person, not the argument.
Argue against straw men.
Deflect attention away from the specific criticism.
Racism, however ugly, is better than the alternative.
Prove your opponent has mistaken some other quality for racism.

Zek J Evets said...

wow... when did i ever mass-comment your blog or continue a conversation when the other person was obviously done talking about a particular thread? some of those posts are months old! and if you're allowed to talk controversially about race, i don't see why i can't too. but either way, if my blog isn't of relevance then please, GO AWAY. okay? if you continue to be bat-shit-crazy on my blog, spamming me with your own racist assumptions then i'm going to just delete them. i don't moderate for a reason, and you're abusing that openness.

i feel bad for your personal issues and stuff, like the miscarriage, the strange dichotomy you have being married to a white man while being a racist, and your own horrible experiences with race in texas, but that is no excuse to be blatantly abusive after i've already told you i'm not racist, never set out to offend anyone (only to gain understanding) and agreed to disagree with yours and my opinion.

so, again i ask you, please, stop spewing me with your hate. go ahead and keep it on your own blog if you like, just not here. there's enough room on the internet for your point of view and mine without all this nonsense. it's gotten to the point where i'm embarrassed for you.

good night.

ShaNic Design said...

I agree completely to what Siditty said.

I have seen you comment on her blog for a long time. You have made some VERY questionable comments.

Did she delete them? Did she stop you from posting? NOPE

If she was as racist and hate-filled as you claim, I highly doubt she would have let you get by, with saying half the bullshit you have said.

Zek J Evets said...

@shanic: nope, she hasn't up until now. now, she has asked me not to come by her blog anymore or comment; calling me a "shit-starter" and portraying me as a stereotype, all for disagreeing with her opinions as well as those who also commented, and then writing my reactions on my own blog. seems to be a double standard, that i can't disagree, and i can't write about disagreeing, but she can? i never even originally thought she was racist -- she said that all by herself. as for calling her hate-filled, i would say anyone that is racist must have a lot of hate. and especially after she hunted down a bunch of my posts to leave randomly angry comments (then deleting them -- i assume out of embarrassment) i feel justified in saying that she, as well as many of the other commenters on her blog, have a lot of issues (hate being among them) that make talking about race on her blog nonconstructive.

and i would challenge you to tell me why my comments are questionable. is it the content or the fact that i'm white? am i not allowed to hold a different opinion? and if i'm not, then why? and if i am, then why the hostility? can i not question people's assumptions? can i not talk about race like everyone else? these are important questions which form a subtext to this whole debate.

despite sid calling me a racist, i have never moderated any of her comments either, and in fact, have often defended her regarding topics on jews and racism towards white people. i still stand by those comments too, because i believe in people even when they hate me, and even if they don't believe me.

you are welcome to disagree with my opinions but try examining WHY you disagree (and maybe making sure you've got my opinions right, since i'm getting misrepresented a lot lately) because if there's one thing siditty and i do agree with, it's that hatred, prejudice, ignorance, bigotry, discrimination and racism are subtle.

Christie said...

omg this is unfuckingbelievable. I'm sorry but i have to say something

ohimterriblysorry.blogspot.com

FunkyStarkitty50 said...

Great points in your blog post, Christie!

Christie said...

@ FunkyStarkitty50: Hey! Thanks! I was kind of annoyed when i read all those comments but after a blogger responded to my post i realized that she strong believes in her opinion as i do mine. I just really don't see the reason for everyone to get on Zek's case. But i do talk about two different things in the post. And it makes me really happy to see you understand what i am talking about. I came to Zek's defense because i wanted to dismiss any speculation of him being a racist. Clearly he is not.The blogger who responded to me is very intelligent so its good to know im not talking to an idiot. lol

I also want to thank you for becoming a follower of my blog. I really do appreciate it.

Hii Zek!!!! loll

Christie said...

ahhh too many typos in that last comment. lol

lu said...

Siddity

you are one of the people that make my stomach turn. its interesting to see how you continuously state the existence of a "rasist america"..sweetheart, your not doing yourself any justice if your one of them.

in other blogs you have stated that you should be able to speak as you wish because of the first amendment, but you DO NOT have the right to insult people on their on page.

if you ever have child,may God help them. hopefully they wont come out brainwashed because of bullshit you might, and probably will instill in them.

thanks.
oh && Zek, keep on coming with these blogs (:

Zek J Evets said...

@lu: thanks for defending me darling, but there's no need. this conversation is way over. i'm pretty sure siditty is back in her own little world.

i'm glad you enoy the postings! i'll keep 'em coming for sure =)

Siditty said...

Lu,

My definition of racism is probably vastly different from yours, but thanks for the concern. I don't believe I am inherently superior than others, but I do have preconceived notions based upon skin color and ethnicity.

I am glad you are concerned about my future kids, it seems many people are, hoping that the child I am pregnant with now dies. I will worry about protecting them from people like you. The people who deny racism and make my stomach turn.

Sincerely,

The racist black woman married to the white man, pregnant with the biracial child.

Zek J Evets said...

@siditty: note that lu said, "if you ever have child". not sure if she knew you were pregnant.

also, if having a "safe" black friend doesn't prevent one from being racist, how does having a "safe" white husband? or is it not the same? (and if so, how is it not the same?)

just curious.